Title: John Kiriakou Podcast: Clive Stafford Smith on the Case of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui
Show: The JK Report
Date: 2026-07-02
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5bvAD0d3XQ
Duration: 2554

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[00:00] Yeah, everyone's denied that she was in US custody for 5 years from 2003 to 2008. She was I've got scores of witnesses now who who encountered her in that. Um I've been to where she was tortured in one of the prisons in Bagram Air Force Base. I've discovered another secret prison where she was held and it's a third place where she raped. Um and these things are just all and so all of that let's just forget where she is now. I mean there's a whole case about

[00:31] her not being guilty of what happened. She's pretty beautiful. But you know she was don't care whether she did it or not at this point she >> Hi. I'm John Kiryaku and welcome back to Deep Focus. We have a a complicated situation to tell you about today. It has to do with a woman by the name of Dr. Afia Sadiki. Aia Sadiki has some of the most incredible educational

[01:02] credentials that you can hear about. Uh she graduated with a bachelor's of science degree from Massachusetts Institute of Technology. She got a PhD at Brandeise University. Uh she she worked in neuroscience and then after the 9/11 attacks she went back to her native Pakistan for a little while. Again during the 2003 war against Pakistan she went back I'm sorry against Afghanistan. She went back to Pakistan. But she became acquainted with some of the people who were targets for the

[01:32] United States. Khaled Shik Muhammad, for example, allegedly named her a courier and a financeier for al-Qaeda. And then she was placed on the FBI's seeking information terrorism list. Now, these are just allegations. We don't know if she was a a courier for al-Qaeda. And just because Khaled Shik Muhammad said so doesn't make it true. But around this time, 2003, she and her three children were allegedly kidnapped in Pakistan. 5 years later, she reappeared in Ghazni, Afghanistan, and

[02:03] was arrested by the Afghan police and then held for questioning by the FBI. What the FBI then alleges is that during that questioning, she was able to take a gun from one of the men in the room and try to fire at an FBI agent. This is this is what we we know from that quote. I could see the barrel of the rifle, the inner portion of the barrel of the weapon. That indicated to me that it was pointed straight at my head. This is from an FBI agent. Then she was said to have threatened them loudly in English,

[02:34] yelling, "Get the f out of here. May the blood of an unintelligible word be on your head." Again, we don't know if that's true. She shouted, "Allahu Akbar." She was taken to the floor and uh and she ended up being prosecuted by the US justice department. In the end, she was given 86 years in prison. There is a gigantic movement in Pakistan to have her released to have her sentence commuted. And frankly, after all these

[03:05] years, 23 years now, 25 years, whatever it is, uh there are a lot of Americans that would like to see Afia Sadiki released on humanitarian grounds. That's not really what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about something, I think, more important, at least to Afia Sadiki. When she was arrested, she had three children. Two of those children uh were taken in by her sister, but her youngest child disappeared. We know now that it was the CIA that

[03:36] took custody of Afia Sadiki's children. So, what happened to the youngest? Well, we're going to have this conversation with a person who I'm proud to call a friend and is one of the most interesting people that you can meet. His name is Clive Stafford Smith. Clive Stafford Smith is a British attorney, specifically a human rights attorney who has not just made gigantic leaps in the direction of human rights, civil rights, and civil liberties in the UK. But he's made an international name for himself supporting people who have been accused of of crimes related to terrorism

[04:08] where they've been accused by the United States and turned out to be innocent and also for his activity against the death penalty here in the United States. He helped to found the not for-profit Louisiana Capital Assistance Center in New Orleans. By 2002, that was the largest capital defense organization in the southern United States. And uh and he's kept up that activity. He has represented more than 80 more than 80 of the Guantanamo detainees who have been held as enemy combatants. Uh and he's made, like I say, great strides in human

[04:39] rights. So Clive Stafford Smith, thank you so much for joining us. It's a pleasure to have you. >> Well, I think I should say at the very beginning that it's clear I must have paid you a huge amount of money to say all that nonsense. [laughter] And I do need to point out that while I do affect a fabulous British accent, I am American as well. So, and I I >> You know what? I I forgot that. I forgot that you're also American. Well, how many Americans also have the Order of the British Empire after the >> Well, I mean, honestly, I did that for my mother because she got to come and

[05:10] meet the queen. But I need to point out for the British people listening to this that there isn't a British Empire anymore. I mean, it's really just Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands. So, you know, that's pretty silly. It was nice of >> Right, Clive. This situation with Afia Sadiki is very complicated. I'm almost ashamed to tell you that when she was arrested in 2008. I went on ABC News here in the United States and I croeded that this is one of the most significant counterterrorism

[05:41] captures since the 9/11 attacks. Um, in retrospect, I realized that I was wrong. Uh, but also in retrospect, I'm starting to see some of the crimes that were committed against Afia Sadiki. Can you tell us who Afia Sadiki is, why this case is important, and then we'll get into the situation with her children? >> Well, let me say this first. I mean, I brought the very first case with some colleagues against Guantanamo. Um, and you know, when we did that in 2002, it

[06:12] was a matter of principle. You know, I honestly believe that um a lot of people in Gitmo were indeed captured on the battlefield and you know, were doing whatever they were doing and and my principle was that we have a right to a fair trial regardless. It's been fascinating and at some level deeply disappointing over the last 23 years to learn what we as a nation did in terms of torture particularly, but also in terms of doing things that are just unamerican. I mean, I I teach a

[06:43] class about how fabulous the American Constitution is. I am I carry a copy of the Constitution with me. Um I I'm a huge fan. Uh and it's something that Britain, by the way, really needs. Um, and so it was very tragic and and I thought I couldn't be shocked anymore after I represented Binyan Muhammad who was taken to Morocco where we uh took a razor blade to his genitals every two weeks for a year and a half and all this just crazy crazy stuff that's totally unamerican. Um, but you know, as so

[07:15] often in life, I turned out to be wrong. You know, they did shock me. Uh, and I got roped into Afia's case two years ago by her amazing sister. a sister Fousia is a doctor from Harvard. Um, and if you're ever in trouble, for goodness sake, Fousia is your sister. And she I just got some of my Gitmo guys out and I thought, hey, you know, I must have some extra time and and I met Fousy at a weak moment and she got me to go see a started looking into it. Um, and yeah, everyone will have listened to

[07:46] what you said at the beginning. It's pretty much all false. Uh, and I wouldn't have said that 20 years ago. I I wouldn't have disagreed vehemently with you in 2008 probably because we just didn't know. But to me, the thing that sets this so far apart is first there were very few women who ended up being taken in as leaders of Ala and there's a reason for that. It's the most chauvinist organization on the planet. I mean there weren't any women who were in leadership positions. But what really got me, you know, you're a father, I'm a

[08:17] father. Um was what happened to the children. So they were abducted with Afia in in March the 30th, 2003 in Karachi and they were abducted and I I've sort of over the last little while got a surreptitious recording of one of the agents who abducted her. I've got another agent who did it. I've got an ISI agent who talks about what they did. And I've even got some people from the US and and I and I really welcome more frankly because the truth is the important thing. But what happened was we took Afia and we took

[08:49] her three children. Now allegedly we dropped Sullean aged six months on his head and killed them. But there's no proof of that and I'm not sure that happened. And then what you discover is we took the other two kids Mariam age three who was a US citizen and the CIA and I'm sorry about you know saying these things about your your former colleagues but I just don't know what got into these people. They took this little American girl and took her to Afghanistan a thousand kilometers north

[09:20] of Karachi and put her in a forcible adoption with a white Christian American family [clears throat] for seven years and renamed her Fatima. And then with the son Ahmed almost even more shocking another American citizen age six we took him to Kad and we put him in prison and in institutions there we renamed him Isan Ali and we said if you ever say you're Ahmed you know we'll we'll do you great harm and he was there

[09:50] for five years now the first thing for me is oh come on what got into anyone's mind that those of us who swear to uphold the American constitution would do that to two little American children. And so, you know, before I even get to Afia, it's that that bothers me the most. Um, and and I want we've now got the two older ones back as as you said, but fortunately, you know, it wasn't through any kind actions on our part. My chief witness, you know, I've

[10:21] been to Afghanistan five times in the last couple of years on this. And my chief witness for what happened to the little girl Mariam is Ahmed Kazak because he was the guy who got her back for for her auntie Fia seven years later. And you know, you don't have to believe what I say, but I don't think Ahmed is making it up. Uh and then you have this issue, and this has been true so much, and I understand a little of it. And can I just say, John, with all of this, I'm not into recrimination,

[10:51] right? I'm not into prosecuting people. I'm not into telling them they're evil or anything. I'm just into trying to set right some of the wrongs that that I'm afraid we did. Um, but, you know, people don't tell the truth about taking my clients off and torturing them for years. I understand why they don't, but they shouldn't have done that. and Afia. Everyone's denied that she was in US custody for five years from 2003 to 2008. She was I've got scores of witnesses now who who encountered her in

[11:23] that. Um I've been to where she was tortured in one of the prisons in Bagram Air Force Base. I've discovered another secret prison where she was held and there was a third place where she was raped. Um and these things are just awful. And so all of that, let's just forget where she is now. I mean, there's a whole case about not being guilty of what happened to Gazny, which is pretty irrefutable in my view. But, you know, the issue is I don't care whether she did it or not at this point. She's suffered. I could go on for hours. I'm

[11:55] sorry, John. >> Well, let me let me ask you about that. First of all, I I agree with you. Decades have passed. I don't care what she did. She's paid. I feel that I feel the same way about many of the the Guantanamo detainees. They've been there for 20 almost 25 years without having been charged with a crime. It's time to turn the page. But with that said, I I want to probe a little bit deeper into what's happened to these children. The allegations that you you are making here have been proven true with a

[12:26] passage of time. I agree with you, Clive. If you had said what you just said a moment ago, if you had said it in 2008, I would have said you were a crazy person. But it's been proven to have been true. Why would the CIA have done something like this? I mean, if you look back at 2003, let's say, or the period 2003 to 2008, there's a war on the CIA supposed to be supporting the um the Department of Defense and the White House and the prosecution of this war.

[12:58] Who would think that there's time to kidnap a woman's children, pass them off as people that they aren't to other families, and then disappear one of the children? What in the world was taking place at the CIA at the time for them to conclude that this was a good idea? >> Well, that's an incredibly good question. I do think a lot of it comes down to Pakistan. I've spent a lot of time in Pakistan. You know, I currently represent the most famous woman in Pakistan, Afia, and I'm trying to help represent the most famous man, Imran

[13:29] Khan, who's an old friend of >> Yes. >> Um, but and I'm going to say this and it's not going to make me any friends in the ISI, but the ISI are maniacs and you know there that's not true of everyone. I know lots of people and you probably know as well as I do that 50% of the ISI are on one side and 50% on the other side. >> Right. And and I've said exactly that in interviews. >> Yes. But over the years as I've seen it um what used to be the military of Pakistan which was the bulwwork against

[13:59] India um and people trusted them has become increasingly corrupt and that's become more and more so and never more so perhaps than when Masharov was selling people for bounties and he sold out and a lot of what happened to her and the kids has the fingerprints of the ISI on it and there's a logical reason you know Pakistan is let's face it a pretty chauvinist country and people in Pakistan are utterly horrified by the

[14:29] fact that a woman was tortured honestly I don't see a big difference I don't think we should torture anyone but it's a massive distinction for the people of Pakistan and if it had come out if some of the things that happened to her had come out in Pakistan at the time it happened or in any of the five years after that when Mashar was still in Oh, could have been the end of it. Um, and I think a lot of the crazy things that happened in Alfia's case were actually part of um of

[15:00] the ISIS deal. Um, and this is my opinion, but we got some pretty strong facts to back it up. >> That that makes sense, >> right? I tell you there was a disposal program and you know this has been pretty shocking to me over the years to learn about these disposal programs. One was Iben Shik al Libby of course and other was Mustafa Smarin Nasa but there was one for Afia and this is worth just looking at what happened in July 2008. So as you said you know she was in Gazny what happened before that was a bit more important. I think and you know some of

[15:32] your listeners may tell me I'm wrong on this and I'd love to talk to you but I think there came a point when the CIA figured out she really wasn't any big deal. Uh and that happened to a lot of people of course who had been turned over to him where Muhammad had been tortured into saying something wacko about um and so I think the you the CIA wanted to get rid of her. Now with a lot of people they just dumped them you know got rid of them and put them back out where they came from. The CIA could have done that but the Pakistanis couldn't because if in 2008

[16:04] in July she had surfaced with what had happened to her at the behest of Masharaf and what had happened to the kids it would have been the end of Mashar. Masharif was teetering by then was going to get kicked out a few months later. If she had reappeared on the scene it would have been the end of it. I am pretty confident from various sources uh including one of them within the ISI that they were the people behind the disposal plan. And what what happened was Afia was put on a a ban and

[16:34] sent to Gazny with her son Ahmed. Now one of the shocking things that she didn't even realize that was him. She had been so abused. He was so abused. She was in a full shad. He was wearing something that made him look like a suicide bomber. was a jacket in the middle of summer with four big pockets full of brute and they were sent down to Gazny on the promise that she could get her daughter back there if she sat out inside a particular mosque and then they could buzz off back to Pakistan and live happily ever after as long as she never

[17:04] said where she'd been. Now they went there but that wasn't what was going to happen. And I have it from several sources that someone, and I'm confident I know who it was, in the ISI had made a call saying suicide bomber outside a mosque in Gazny. And the Afghan National Police was going to show up. They were going to see this woman. They were going to start shouting at her in fy. She didn't speak far. There was going to be pandemonium. And you know what the standard operating procedures were? You don't go and give a hug to a person who might be a suicide bombing. You you

[17:35] shoot and then ask questions later. and they would have looked like that. Now, the only reason that didn't happen was this guy that I tracked down in in Gazni, guy called Muhammad Amal Muhammad, who was a tor across the street from the mosque. Afia sat outside this mosque for seven hours waiting for her daughter to show up. Never happened, never was. And finally, no one could talk to her. But Muhammad went out there and he had been tailoring in Pakistan. So he spoke erdu and he was able to

[18:05] communicate with her and he said it's getting dark. It's July the 17th 2008. This is a war zone. You can't uh you can't stay here you know come and stay with my mom. and she wouldn't. She said, "No, no, no. I'm waiting for the delivery of this person." And he was talking to her when the A&P showed up and there was a slew of them, 40 of them with their AK-47s who ran her and they're screaming and she doesn't understand. And Muhammad stood in the way and he's why she wasn't shot like that. And I [clears throat] got to say,

[18:36] I like that guy. I've talked to him a lot and you know, he's not making anything up. And so he stopped it. One of them came sneaking around the back and pulled her shador off, discovered she's not a suicide bomb. So that's when they quote arrest her and they took her to the Afghan National Police Headquarters. Now there they discovered that the only offense she committed was she didn't have a passport with a visa which not surprising since she'd been abducted by the CIA. So they're just holding her and the US show up the next

[19:07] day. And one of the things that's interesting to me is I think, and you can tell me I'm naive, but I don't think the FBI knew that the CIA had had it all this time. You know, maybe >> Oh, I'm confident that you're correct because even post 911, there was very little cooperation and communication between the CIA and the FBI. The CIA absolutely hated that there were FBI agents overseas and the FBI hated that the CIA was interfering with their investigation into the 911 attack.

[19:39] >> Well, right and you know all of that happened of course in background with Shake Olivia and one of my clients described everything happened there. But but I think what happened here was the FBI here. Oh, this very dangerous AI Sadiki's just been nabbed in Gazi. So they come rushing in thinking they're going to get a medal for capturing this person and uh and they they try to come in and actually the Afghans say no, you can't have it. And they say no twice. And then according to one of my sources in US intelligence um you know we did

[20:10] what we do best and we got in. Now here's where the stories diverge, but I I need to tell you this because it's pretty crucial. So she's in a room. I've been to this room in the AMP headquarters in Gazi. I've been there several times and there was a curtain down the middle of the room. She's behind the curtain on a bed and she hears American voices and you know this woman is deeply traumatized and she really is to this day terribly traumatized. Um and she hears American

[20:41] voices and thinks, "Oh my goodness, I'm going to be taken back." So according to her, she peaks around the curtain to see if there's a way out. and a US soldier says she's on the loose and shoots her twice in the stomach. That's her version of events. Now, the other version of events is that they all come in the room that the chief warrant officer looks behind the curtain to check it's all safe and didn't see anything. That's impossible. Um, and then they sit down. He puts his machine gun up against the

[21:12] wall as one does in the BA and she reaches under, grabs the gun, flips the safety catch off. I'm sure perhaps you know where the safety catch is on an M4. I don't know if you do. Well, you know, I do now because I wouldn't check, but I don't think I could have done this. And then she fires off a couple of bullets. Then this the chief warrant officer shoots her in self-defense. And the thing at trial is the prosecution showed two holes in the wall that were evidence that she'd fired two shots. Um, but unfortunately for

[21:44] them, turns out there's a video made in that selfsame room earlier that morning and the two holes in the wall were already there. They then, and this doesn't come out until the very very last second of trial, so the jury doesn't to hear that problem. So they search for bullets from an M4. They don't find any. No shell casings from an M4. They find the shell casings from the 9 millimeter and you know obviously the bullet one of these in her stomach. Um and so in my view she never did fire. She never did do an attempted murder.

[22:14] But you know one thing you have to think about in all of this is it was the the war in Afghanistan. There were 100,000 people who were actually killed and there were very very few people who got prosecuted for anything in Afghanistan. And the idea that I just had my poor poor students look through every attempted murder case in from 1984 to 2025 in the US. Afia Sadiki's got the second longest sentence of hundreds of people for this where no one got injured but herself where I think that the people who testified were just you know

[22:47] sticking up for the guy who shot her um and put them in trouble. Uh and she gets 86 years. I mean, it's just pretty mad. >> Where is she now? >> She's in FMC Carwell and I've been to I've been to see her a lot of times, of course, and you know, I I do death penalty work. I've been to every death row in America just about. I've been to Guantanamo 42 times. It is my Caribbean resort of choice. Carwell's worse. I've never been to a place that treats the prisoners so badly. And when I first

[23:17] talked to her, she talked about being sexually abused and raped in Carwell. not skeptical, but then >> don't be skeptical. Let let me interrupt you on that point. A lot of Americans don't know what FMC Carwell is. It is a maximum security penitentiary for women. Uh there aren't very many women in maximum security status in America. They're all in Carswwell. Uh there are medium security prisons for women and certainly u minimum security camps. But

[23:49] this is this is one of these hell on earth kind of places. And just to put it into perspective too, um sexual abuse and sexual assault in the federal prison system is rampant to the point where uh there's a there was until recently >> FCI Dublin. That's right. In California, which the warden and the guards called the rape club where they would freely rape any prisoner they wanted to rape. Even the even the the chaplain was

[24:20] convicted of raping uh prisoners and it was so bad and went so deep that they just shut the whole prison down and scattered the prisoners uh around. There was a recent multi-million dollar settlement for those female prisoners who have been raped. But the only reason that that we even know about this is is that they got caught. This happens all the time in America. FMCwell is in theory a medical center and you'd like to think that's sort of really >> and and that's what FMC stands for federal medical center >> but I mean when I first looked into it there's actually a very good young journalist who's done a lot of work on

[24:52] FMCwell and she had you know developed all this evidence there were 13 guards convicted of rape or sexual assaults in Kswwell and one was the chaplain there too and um you know so it all became rather credible and but the worst thing about that is Afia is in the admin segue Uh, and she's held there. She's been held there longer than any of the other 10,000. Basically, it is, but it's because, you know, they review her what's clearly PTSD. I mean, the post-traumatic stress

[25:23] disorder she has. They review it and they think she's making this stuff up. At one point, she saved her turkey dinner and said she was saving it to give it to her son because he was being tortured. And the doctors say that she's making this stuff up and it's some sort of political statement against the US. No, it's not. It's because this deeply traumatized woman um knows that her son was indeed abducted. Um you know, it's shocking though. >> What about her her treatment in FMC

[25:56] Carwell? Otherwise, have you have you been able to meet with her there? Have you been able to get sort of a a deeper look at uh what her day-to-day life is like? >> Yeah, I mean we sued Cara because I job frankly. Um and first I don't understand why there are male guards in a female prison. I don't get that. >> Um but second, you know, the way she's treated is just awful. There's there's a very respected Imam Omar Sullean who

[26:26] lives in Dallas who's he's one of these guys one of the few people I say I look up to who's like 6'7 but he's delightful and charming and he offered to come and give her religious solace they won't let him in. I tried to get doctors in to see her. They won't let doctors in. You know it's just awful. And we should all be you know even if we believe that she had committed this this crime we should be trying to make her a better person. not using her in prison. >> You know, you may have an inn right now, and I'll explain it. I just wrote an

[26:58] op-ed a couple of days ago that ran in uh consortium news where Donald Trump appointed as the deputy director of the Bureau of Prisons, a recently released prisoner. So, this is a a former drug addict, drug dealer by the name of Josh Smith. Uh he did five years in federal prison for drug offenses. Uh got out, created a nonprofit to try to improve conditions

[27:31] inside US prisons, donated money to the Trump campaign, and said to Trump at one point, "Hey, listen. You've got a serious problem in the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Uh it's it's lawless. The guards do whatever they want. The the wardens are corrupt. And sure enough, Trump named him the deputy director. The guards union is up in arms over this. But tough luck for them. The man's going to be the deputy director. >> Well, you know, look, you probably guess I'm not a Republican, but um but I think we should find our colleagues and our

[28:03] our friends wherever we find them. And >> and I think that includes guards in prison. By the way, over the years in Guantanamo, I've made friends with a lot of guards. And you know, they're not bad people. Of course they're not. And the same is true of people in the Bureau of Prisons. The same is true of the CIA. I mean, obviously. And so, I think it's really important to find those allies because really, I mean, the rule that I have is I think we should all behave the way my mom told us to. You know, it's not complicated in life. We should

[28:33] actually all try to just be kind and decent to each other. And I know people think I'm delusional and naive, but actually, it's a good rule. Yeah, I I have to agree. So, I'm going to assume that legally uh she has gone through the process of of appealing and appealing and appealing. She hasn't. Okay, then that was my question is what can we what can be done at the >> Actually, this is very interesting and um you know, I'm the first as a lawyer to say that most law is I think legal

[29:04] term is total [ __ ] But um but in her case, it's sort of interesting because she's so traumatized. She had a hard time trusting any lawyers just like guys in Guantanamo. And look >> that I was just going to say the same words that happened a lot in Guantanamo where people just would not cooperate with their own lawyers because they're they're they had been so um traumatized that they just couldn't >> Well, it is true. You know, you torture someone and someone told me once that a torture victim won't trust his own mother. And I think there's a lot of truth to that. And you know, I'm very

[29:36] gratified that so many of my clients did trust me. Um because it's quite hard when you go into Guantanamo and you say, "Hi, I'm here. I'm American. I'm here to help you." Yeah, right. Look what you've done to us for the last one. Um so Aia really undermined her own case at trial because she didn't want these words. They were paid $2 million, the lawyers at trial, by the Pakistan government. Now, if that's not a conflict of interest, I don't know what is because you take that money and the ISI just

[30:07] really doesn't want you turning over what really happened. And so, she didn't get along with her trial lawyers. She she just she dismissed an appeal later. Um, and then she didn't have anyone to help her for ages. So, really nothing happened. Now, you know, I'm you know me, John, I'm just a dogooder. Um, and I take that as a really positive thing because at least it means I'm able to do better. But, um, so I do it all for nothing because I always work for charity and it's easier to get people's

[30:38] trust that way because they know you're not doing it for money. Um, and and also, you know, I get to go to Afghanistan because I help a lot of people else who are in Gitmo and that's really helpful. So, we now have an amazingly powerful case. I mean, my the thing I just sent to the US attorneys is 102,493 words. You know, that's a long book. >> Um, >> that's a lot. And, you know, the US attorneys, it's not like some of the people I used to deal with politically in the deep south in death cases where

[31:08] they lunatics. The US attorney's office in New York, you know, pretty decent group of human beings. Um, the US attorney himself in New York went to King's College, Cambridge. My mother was admissions secretary in King's College at that point, you know. So, we have a few commonalities and um and I think they'll take this seriously and I very much hope so. And we're going to have a choice, right? I put all of this before them and we've got two different ways. We have a challenge to the conviction, which is a very strong one, and we can get to the merits of that, and we have a

[31:40] motion for compassionate release. And the first thing I will be asking the judge to do is to issue a subpoena to the CIA to come into court and start explaining what they did with these kids and why. Now my experience in Guantanamo is once you start uh threatening to expose what really happened, people get very reasonable. And I would love to think that we could agree on a comp a compassionate release where I've got a hospital for her to go to in Malaysia because I don't want it going anywhere near Pakistan where she can see her

[32:13] kids, her sister can oversee her medical care. She needs years of medical care and we can get all of that funded through donations from as you say the millions of people who support her. And I hope we [clears throat] can just agree on that and that will be the last the US will hear of Afia Sadik. Um, on the other hand, if they want me to do an evidentary hearing on this, you know, I enjoy that stuff and I don't mind that at all, but but it's not the sensible. >> Is there any movement uh in the direction of a compassionate release? I

[32:43] mean, this is something that Donald Trump, for all his faults, has been actually very good on. He's taken a real interest in criminal justice reform, in trying to write some of these wrongs. He's got the oddest collection of people who have been very impactful like Kim Kardashian for example or Alice Johnson or John Kuryaku for that. >> I mean look Kim Kardashian helped us out on that capital case years ago. I mean and her dad was a great lawyer and >> her dad was a great lawyer. No, I I love all these people and you know there's

[33:13] something there's so many people I've met over the years who are quite surprising who you know there's a British MP for example who got charged with something and you know he got to see the wrong side of the justice system and several people have done that John um >> yes indeed >> actually you know I don't want it to happen to you I don't want it to happen to to Donald Trump even um but it does allow people to see the real world out there that it's the real world that I've lived in 41 years now. Um, and and

[33:44] therefore they they understand it. They understand it much better than Joe Biden. I I brought a a clemency petition to Joe Biden um just before Christmas last year and I spent a month trying to get him to pay attention but obviously since Afia was not directly related to him uh pharmacy and indeed he waited until 11:45 a.m. on the 20th of January to send me a letter to the wrong address saying he was denying it. And that pisses me off. And sometimes it's Nixon

[34:14] who goes to China, not the Democrats. And and I like to think that we'll have some allies. And you know, one of the things I like about watching some of your old colleagues in the CIA, um, who probably think that they're at the polar opposite end of political spectrum to me is actually as the art comes around, we often meet and you know, I consider myself a good lefty lefty person and sometimes we just encounter the libertarian conservatives and they are our most powerful allies and I respect

[34:45] that. >> You're absolutely right. Absolutely right. So here we are in 2025. This has been going on since 2003, more publicly since 2008. First, what are the next steps? And second, what can the average American do to help Afyas Sadiki or to help improve the system in general? >> Well, I look, the first thing is we need to know what history is in order to

[35:15] >> Yes. And if we lessons of history, we're doomed to repeat. And my interest in Guantanamo, my interest in this is that people know everything that happened. Not not to send CIA people to prison or anything stupid like that, but just so we can learn the lessons. And I love the whole idea of of what happened in South Africa where, you know, everyone got together and we said sorry for what we shouldn't have done and everyone was forgiven. You know, that's cool. I'm all for that. So, I'm hoping we're going to

[35:45] make it public and I've got a Alazer doing a big two-part documentary on it where I've facilitated their access to all of these witnesses. Um, and you know that's we're going to we're going to make that film. Um, but then we I'm going to end up turning my massive legal pleading into a book just so that I publish in Pakistan because they're not behaving themselves. um and so on and so forth to learn from that. But I do hope that we can work together on things. So there,

[36:17] you know, I'd love to talk to people who know more about this from all sides and I'm never going to judge them if they disagree with me. That's not a problem. But then I really want to make a difference to FNC Carwell because Afia is only one of hundreds of people there and we need to get we need to get religious people in who can help the prisoners. We need to get doctors in who can help them. we need to clean that place up for for the sake of everyone. Uh and you know whatever and then people can write to Afia. It does give her great solace when I send her letters

[36:48] from people who say that her plight because really she's in the depths of a terrible terrible place and she needs encouragement. You mentioned a few minutes ago, Clive, that she was in administrative segregation, which is a a nice Bureau of Prisons way of saying solitary confinement. And solitary confinement will make you go crazy if you're not already crazy. Uh what is her normal day like? I I can tell you I I spent I spent eight days in

[37:19] solitary. No big deal. I slept. I got up. I walked in thousands of circles in my little, you know, 8 by 10 foot cell. I did push-ups and then I would just go back to sleep. You lose, you lose sense of what time of the day it is. There are no windows, so you don't know. Is it day, is it night, is it sunny, is it rainy? You don't have any idea. 8 days, okay, I can do it. 20 years is a different prospect. We have we have people in the American prison system that have been in solitary confinement

[37:50] for as long as 44 years. You cannot maintain sanity by being in solitary climate. Oh, in fact, >> the New York Times >> they represented people down in Louisiana and of course >> in Louisiana. Exactly. The New York Times did a story a few years ago about a man who um was able to to break the the plastic uh shaver and pull the blade out, cut his scrotum open, pull his testicles out. He hung one on the on the door handle of the

[38:20] cell and then was rushed to the hospital and when the doctor asked him why did you do that he said it was the only thing I could think of that would allow me to have human contact he hadn't hadn't had human contact was the one who said that you can judge the civilization of a society by looking in the prisons and we don't send people to prison to be punished we send them there as a punishment and you know we we we just got to start behaving ourselves in in the way we deal with people in prison. Um, and Afia's day is just

[38:52] horrendous. By and large, she there's only eight people in that admin unit. Um, she's pretty much in isolation all the time. There's nothing to do. You know, we try and get her religious books in there. We try and get her other stuff, but it's just awful for her. And I have young lawyers who are working with me who who I send in to go see her um just to give her someone to talk to, but they're not allowed a contact visit. So, it's behind glass and there's that doesn't really work. And you know, you'd

[39:23] be surprised how even that is dehumanizing when you just you can't even give someone shake their hand or give them a hug. And it's also stupid because they search us on the way in. It's not like I'm carrying anything in with me. Um, so all of this is just so unnecessary and so unpleasant. And I'll say again that she has been in admin SEG for longer than any other woman in federal custody in America, including the women who are on death row. And that's why. And it's because they misread her PTSD as some sort of

[39:56] streperous anti-Americanism, which is just not true. She's actually quite pro-American and she vehemently disagrees with people who want to use violence on her behalf. And you know, one of the bizarre realities is America would be a safer place if we centered Malaysia or wherever because then there wouldn't be all these nutty people who want to do something to help. You know, >> is she permitted to receive uh mail? >> But she can. I mean what I do and I'll give you my email if I may is I ask send

[40:29] letters to me. I then attach them to a legal letter from me and I just send her 100 pages at a time. >> That's important. It's really important to give someone a bit of human. You know, I was in a low security prison, Clive, and I'll tell you, mail was was getting mail and receiving it and sending it was a traumatic experience where even at a low security prison, if they don't like your face, they'll just reject the mail and they'll send it back to the to the sender. So, if it comes from an attorney, they can't

[41:01] touch it. It comes in and goes out as legal mail and they have to >> do and and I go over it very carefully to make sure there's nothing in it. But, you know, but is just people writing encouraging stuff >> and and that's that's really cool. So, they still try to mess with that. But then, you know, that's why we keep suing. >> Anyway, Clive, um, where can people learn more about the important work that you do, whether it's here in the United States, it's related to Guantanamo, or other

[41:31] people facing human rights abuses around the world. >> That's all over. And that's, you know, I love So, I I founded more recently. I've always worked for charity because I don't see the point of anything else. Um, and my latest one is called the Justice League because I want young people to become superheroes of human rights. Me personally, I want to be Thor Ragnarok because, you know, I used to pump on when I was trying to be a sportsman when I was young, but I'm never going to have Chris Hemsworth's body. So, [laughter] >> so it's it's clive

[42:04] justiceleague.org.uk UK and please you're most welcome to share that with anyone and and you know you can get you can go to our website and look at [music] stuff but you can just send me an email I'll reply because I I love it that people have an interest in here and even though it takes quite a lot of my day I um I really like to reply to people who sh interest and are decent enough to do >> fantastic well Clive Stafford Smith thank you so much for being with us we're going to we're going to put That
